Curse

MasterSasori · Jan 27, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

So I want to know what people like to bring in HM for Paras and what Kind of build structure they use. I made a team build using OoV for starters and ideas are welcome.

I like using Anthem of Disruption, Envy, and Weariness, but I'm willing to try out new things. I'm not really interested in Motigons unless you have a strong statement otherwise.

Though stunning strike is take very often, how viable do yall think of Soldier's fury. It's good bar compression by removing AR as IAS leaving 1 slot open, and the adren gain is good for powering anthems. Shouts/chants that are good to go with Soldier's Fury are SY, TNTG, Stand your ground, Theyre on fire and others. Thoughts?

EDIT:

Sorry I should have clarified - I'm looking for paragon(s) for HM other than the 2 command, motivation, D/N dark orders build.

There is already a Racway thread.

Zodiac Meteor · Jan 27, 2010, 07:05 PM // 19:05

The infamous Racway

Racway

This one isn't favored as much though.

MasterSasori · Jan 27, 2010, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

The infamous Racway

Racway

This one isn't favored as much though.

Sorry I should have clarified - I'm looking for paragons for HM other than the 2 command, motivation, D/N dark orders build.

Basically one that.

And yes, Racway didn't perform as well as I hoped. I'm looking for new ideas, something like an offshoot from what Racway is doing.

mage767 · Jan 27, 2010, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Try combining paragons with pets for some uber-lolwtf...racway needs heavy modifictions if you still want your 2 paragon heroes with your para main. Also, kick the D/N, and get a MM/curse hybrid with barbs and Mark of Pain..

Go destroy everything nicely...

Elon's Rose · Jan 27, 2010, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Considering Soldier's Fury is getting the Cracked Armor treatment soon (with the MAT update), Stunning Strike is still the preferred Elite on a command hero. "Incoming!" is something to think about, though, if you like to use an IMS or don't feel like you need stunning (I pretty much only need it when facing Monks and Elementalists in HM). With Incoming+Fall Back, a hero can typically keep you in permanent 33% IMS when moving from fight to fight, and it generally doesn't need an orders hero either (since Incoming/Fall Back are both energy based).

I tend to use something like...

Swift Spear
Vicious Spear
"Incoming!" (Elite)
"Fall Back!"
Anthem of Envy
Anthem of Weariness
Aggressive Refrain
Signet of Return

with 10+1 Spear Mastery, 10+2 Leadership, and 11+1+1 Command

ac1inferno · Jan 28, 2010, 02:23 AM // 02:23

I find Paragon heroes run Motivation better than Command.

[build prof=P/any motiva=11+1+2 leader=10+2 spearm=10+1 comman=1][Vicious Attack]["Go for the Eyes!"][Optional][Anthem of Flame][Ballad of Restoration][Aria of Zeal][Aggressive Refrain][Signet of Return][/build]
- [[Song of Purification] to remove Conditions from allies.
- [[Song of Restoration] to heal allies.

smilingscar · Jan 28, 2010, 03:12 AM // 03:12

I've noticed that just having anthem of weariness on the field helps dual spirit builds quite a bit.

Life Bringing · Jan 28, 2010, 03:38 AM // 03:38

I'm slightly confused. Are you looking for additional paragon builds to run on your heroes? As in you want to keep using yourself+2 paragon heroes? Or are you just wanting a general hero setup to do general pve on your paragon?

MasterSasori · Jan 28, 2010, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I'm slightly confused. Are you looking for additional paragon builds to run on your heroes? As in you want to keep using yourself+2 paragon heroes? Or are you just wanting a general hero setup to do general pve on your paragon?

I'm looking for hero builds that accentuate both the paragon user (you and me) and the paragon hero. I'm trying to include paragons in the hero build if possible.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jan 28, 2010, 10:00 PM // 22:00

My paragon runs with General Morgahn (spear/command/leadership) and Hayda (spear/motivation/leadership). I ran D/N Orders for a while and was disappointed with the results. The extra damage and adrenaline were certainly useful, but the heals were less than impressive, and overall I felt that the dervish was not pulling her weight. After the ritualist update I created an Rt/N orders build that has Splinter Weapon, SoS, bloodsong, agony, spirit siphon, order of pain, dark fury. in the last slot I put strip enchantment or well of blood or flesh of my flesh. depending on the area. I've also used an SoS healer that looks very much like the one you posted. Both work very well IMO.

compared to the orders dervish, Rt/N delivers *much* more damage because of splinter weapon @ 14+ channeling along with the armor ignoring damage from the spirits along with the Orders. The spirits also draw fire from the mobs, serving much the same purpose as a minion master, except that you have no need for corpses. This means that the ritualist works in places where the minion master is useless.

compared to the minion master, the Rt/N will give more damage (from splinter weapon and spirits) but loses the AoE explosion damage from Death Nova. You could conceivably make an N/Rt build that did minion bombing, Orders, *and* channeling, but that is spreading into four attributes already if you use soul reaping for energy.

I find that heroes with splinter weapon can reliably maintain it on two physical damage dealers and sometimes get it on three. I usually bring barrage ranger henchmen to take maximum advantage of splinter weapon. Typical vanquishing group would be 3 paragon, 1 Rt/N, 2 Ranger, 2 Monk. (healers, because the imbagon player removes the need for prot). One other thing.... maybe a lot of people are not aware of this, but some of the paragon shouts and anthems work on spirits. I definitely recommend bringing Anthem of Disruption, Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Weariness, and Go For The Eyes on your paragon or the heroes. This works well enough that I don't have Morgahn running Stunning Strike very much anymore, the interrupts are coming from every character and from the spirits too. As a final note, I run a modified imbagon with the following:

wild throw
spear of fury
save yourselves
anthem of weariness
ebon battle standard of honor
make your time
focused anger
aggressive refrain / never surrender / can't touch this / we shall return

i have max kurzick so spear of fury is giving +8 adrenaline per shot (at least), it instantly recharges SY. Make Your Time gives 4 adrenaline (doubled to 8 under focused anger) so I can throw SY instantly, even before aggroing anything. either of these methods can recharge SY or recharge Wild Throw instantly, which is a key skill because I use this to remove stances so that the other physical attackers can spike them down. I can recharge and reuse it very quickly (like every 3s or so) so it really helps. Much more useful than any other spear skill IMO. The paragons still carry swift javelin because it can go through blocking enchantments (crit defenses, aegis, etc.). You might even go so far as to put Anthem of Guidance on your command paragon. The other one should almost always be running Song of Purification to keep your attackers condition free.

with all of this in place your physical attackers will potentially have all of the following stacked up on their attacks:

go for the eyes
anthem of envy
anthem of weariness
anthem of disruption
ebon battle standard of honor
order of pain
dark fury
splinter weapon

that is a boatload of damage and utility.

MasterSasori · Jan 29, 2010, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

My paragon runs with General Morgahn (spear/command/leadership) and Hayda (spear/motivation/leadership). I ran D/N Orders for a while and was disappointed with the results. The extra damage and adrenaline were certainly useful, but the heals were less than impressive, and overall I felt that the dervish was not pulling her weight. After the ritualist update I created an Rt/N orders build that has Splinter Weapon, SoS, bloodsong, agony, spirit siphon, order of pain, dark fury. in the last slot I put strip enchantment or well of blood or flesh of my flesh. depending on the area. I've also used an SoS healer that looks very much like the one you posted. Both work very well IMO.

A rit instead. Interesting. I'll have to try that out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

One other thing.... maybe a lot of people are not aware of this, but some of the paragon shouts and anthems work on spirits. I definitely recommend bringing Anthem of Disruption, Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Weariness, and Go For The Eyes on your paragon or the heroes.

Yes I recently learned of this. It pays to do your research.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

The other one should almost always be running Song of Purification to keep your attackers condition free.

I really dislike motivation. It's always been a big let down for me. Nevertheless I shall try it again with the rit.

Thank you for the ideas.

Keep em coming!

Chthon · Jan 29, 2010, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

One other thing.... maybe a lot of people are not aware of this, but some of the paragon shouts and anthems work on spirits. I definitely recommend bringing Anthem of Disruption, Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Weariness, and Go For The Eyes on your paragon or the heroes.

But spirits have this tendency to all attack the same target. That makes AoDisruption and AoWeariness a lot less appealing. Also, I was not aware that spirits were capable of dealing extra damage on a critical hit. Are you sure that GftE does anything for them? Anthem of Envy though, seems like a winner.

In general, I don't use paragon heroes too often. When I do the focus is usually on abusing the combination of GftE and Refrains/Finales.

AtomicMew · Jan 29, 2010, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

But spirits have this tendency to all attack the same target. That makes AoDisruption and AoWeariness a lot less appealing. Also, I was not aware that spirits were capable of dealing extra damage on a critical hit. Are you sure that GftE does anything for them? Anthem of Envy though, seems like a winner.

In general, I don't use paragon heroes too often. When I do the focus is usually on abusing the combination of GftE and Refrains/Finales.

No, spirits do not crit. They always do a set amount of damage that is armor ignoring.

Also, the real "money" synergy is with anthem of envy, which is just huge amounts of damage. Weakness and disruption are nice, but it's almost assuredly better just to spam envy as much as possible IMO.

Tenebrae · Jan 29, 2010, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Whatever you do , try not to use moti line , is damn weak in pve. Weariness and Envy with Fall Back to speed things up are good options. You as a Para can use SY and or TNTF so get advantage of that.
If your party is going to have 3+ non-casters , Blood necro or that D/N is a really good addition.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jan 29, 2010, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

But spirits have this tendency to all attack the same target. That makes AoDisruption and AoWeariness a lot less appealing. Also, I was not aware that spirits were capable of dealing extra damage on a critical hit. Are you sure that GftE does anything for them? Anthem of Envy though, seems like a winner.

In general, I don't use paragon heroes too often. When I do the focus is usually on abusing the combination of GftE and Refrains/Finales.

re: GFTE I am not 100% sure that it works on spirit damage, I have seen higher numbers floating around but that may have been anthem of envy. that's only a minor side benefit anyway, it certainly works on the 3 paragons and 2 rangers that I usually bring in the group.

re: anthem of disruption, anthem of weariness... the spirits tend to attack who you are attacking, and so behave just as heroes do. this is not entirely bad though, if you are attacking a monk or ele boss you can imagine how repeated interrupts coming in from 5 physicals and spirits would be helpful.

i will repeat what has often been said before, paragons get stronger in groups, if you are running a paragon you should certainly consider using paragon heroes.

skills that are usually uninspiring like Finale of Restoration, Chorus of Restoration, and Anthem of Fury become very good in this situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Whatever you do , try not to use moti line , is damn weak in pve. Weariness and Envy with Fall Back to speed things up are good options. You as a Para can use SY and or TNTF so get advantage of that.
If your party is going to have 3+ non-casters , Blood necro or that D/N is a really good addition.

some of it is weak, i agree. IMO the balance team over-nerfed motivation in the extreme, and most of that was done before the pve/pvp split, so a lot of the skills remain weak. But there are a few skills that are strong in groups with multiple shouters, they get stronger when more shouts are flying around.
chorus of restoration, finale of restoration, purifying finale, energizing finale, song of purification, the power is yours. consider how powerful these skills might be if there were shouts ending every second or two. this synergy is why all of it was nerfed in the first place.

Song of Restoration is the worst... an elite skill that basically does a Heal Party every 20-30 seconds. ZOMG. Except that a monk can do that every 2 seconds without an elite, and using a useful attribute line with 14+ in the attribute. you're never going to see that on a paragon. wtb skill balancers with clue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

No, spirits do not crit. They always do a set amount of damage that is armor ignoring.

Also, the real "money" synergy is with anthem of envy, which is just huge amounts of damage. Weakness and disruption are nice, but it's almost assuredly better just to spam envy as much as possible IMO.

thanks for the clarification on GFTE, I wasn't sure about that.

re: anthem of disruption, anthem of envy, anthem of weariness, GFTE... you don't have to choose between them, you bring multiple paragons and bring them all. The orders guy buffs the whole group, and each of the paragons buff the whole group. Win.

Athrun Feya · Feb 04, 2010, 07:30 PM // 19:30

I made a build a while ago based on some of the ideas in racway but actually a bit different - it seems to include some of the ideas mentioned here:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Athru...ee_Hero#Athway

the apart from a few command skills, the commandagon in the original racway wasnt overly useful, so in my version has become a Rt/P SoS splinter bot with some command support (extra aoe splinter damage). I also didn't particularly like running the D/N Orders with it running up to use dwayna's touch on my melee hench - ive never found its healing/energy management capabilities as good as people have claimed. I've changed this to an E/N ether renewal orders, which has allowed me to drop in some curse skills, for even more extra damage). Sadly you have to playing an imbagon, zzz

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 08, 2010, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Thanks for posting the link, I see we had similar ideas for some of the builds. I have created a page to describe the team build I'm using now, I hope that it is useful for all the paragon fans out there. I started out with something similar to racway but it evolved into what you see in the link below.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Kway

Lanier · Feb 08, 2010, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

some of it is weak, i agree. IMO the balance team over-nerfed motivation in the extreme, and most of that was done before the pve/pvp split, so a lot of the skills remain weak. But there are a few skills that are strong in groups with multiple shouters, they get stronger when more shouts are flying around.
chorus of restoration, finale of restoration, purifying finale, energizing finale, song of purification, the power is yours. consider how powerful these skills might be if there were shouts ending every second or two. this synergy is why all of it was nerfed in the first place.

Song of Restoration is the worst... an elite skill that basically does a Heal Party every 20-30 seconds. ZOMG. Except that a monk can do that every 2 seconds without an elite, and using a useful attribute line with 14+ in the attribute. you're never going to see that on a paragon. wtb skill balancers with clue.

Motivation may need some buffing but its not that weak. You already keyed in on finale of restoration and song of purification. I also like Ballad of Restoration and Song of Restoration. Ballad provides some good party-wide support for only 4 energy. Song of Restoration is not bad at all. It may have a 20 sec (not 30 sec) recharge but you cant compare it to a monk's heal party because heal party's fast recharge doesnt matter anyway. Monks dont spam heal party that often b/c of its high energy. It costs 15 energy while Song of Restoration only costs 4 energy. Song of Restoration also activates finales and refreshes refrains. Song of Restoration also heals for way more than Heal Party. Song of Restoration also isnt a spell and therefore isnt subject to caster hate like backfire. Song of Restoration also has a 1 sec less casting time and is therefore not as easy to interupt (even with the AI's godlike reflexes, they are more likely to interupt longer casting spells because of the more likely probability that one of there interupts will become available to use during that longer casting time perioud.

What im trying to say is that SoR may need a little bit of a buff but it certainly isnt a bad elite skill at all.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 09, 2010, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Motivation may need some buffing but its not that weak. You already keyed in on finale of restoration and song of purification. I also like Ballad of Restoration and Song of Restoration. Ballad provides some good party-wide support for only 4 energy. Song of Restoration is not bad at all. It may have a 20 sec (not 30 sec) recharge but you cant compare it to a monk's heal party because heal party's fast recharge doesnt matter anyway. Monks dont spam heal party that often b/c of its high energy. It costs 15 energy while Song of Restoration only costs 4 energy. Song of Restoration also activates finales and refreshes refrains. Song of Restoration also heals for way more than Heal Party. Song of Restoration also isnt a spell and therefore isnt subject to caster hate like backfire. Song of Restoration also has a 1 sec less casting time and is therefore not as easy to interupt (even with the AI's godlike reflexes, they are more likely to interupt longer casting spells because of the more likely probability that one of there interupts will become available to use during that longer casting time perioud.

What im trying to say is that SoR may need a little bit of a buff but it certainly isnt a bad elite skill at all.

yeah maybe I was a little harsh on Song of Restoration and Ballad of Restoration... after all, Protective Was Kaolai has basically the same function and the same recharge (20s). The difference is that PwK is a spell, and as such it can be echoed, glyphed, or warded to recharge it much more quickly, even instantly. There's nothing you can do with Song or Ballad of Restoration since they are not spells. Well maybe you could use Serpent's Quickness, or use Echo + Ballad of Restoration, or maybe Assassin's Promise... but those seem suboptimal to me. AP demands spiking skills so as not to miss AP, which wouldn't leave a lot of room for healing skills. I suppose it could work though.

i'll just say that I believe that almost all paragon skills should have fairly short recharges precisely because of the "shout ending on target" effect you mentioned. If a shout or anthem can only be used once every 20-30s then obviously it can't end that often and that destroys skill synergy. IMO they should have shorter recharges, even if that means weakening the effect.

BTW the Heal Party monk has been a standard for quite some time now... Mo/E with glyph of lesser energy, healer's boon, and heal party. BiP necros are popular with this build because of the high energy cost. I'm not saying that this is the best option, but at least the monk HAS the option. Paragon can't do much to help with the recharge of his skills.

khaderach19 · Feb 10, 2010, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

yeah maybe I was a little harsh on Song of Restoration and Ballad of Restoration... after all, Protective Was Kaolai has basically the same function and the same recharge (20s). The difference is that PwK is a spell, and as such it can be echoed, glyphed, or warded to recharge it much more quickly, even instantly. There's nothing you can do with Song or Ballad of Restoration since they are not spells. Well maybe you could use Serpent's Quickness, or use Echo + Ballad of Restoration, or maybe Assassin's Promise... but those seem suboptimal to me. AP demands spiking skills so as not to miss AP, which wouldn't leave a lot of room for healing skills. I suppose it could work though.

i'll just say that I believe that almost all paragon skills should have fairly short recharges precisely because of the "shout ending on target" effect you mentioned. If a shout or anthem can only be used once every 20-30s then obviously it can't end that often and that destroys skill synergy. IMO they should have shorter recharges, even if that means weakening the effect.

BTW the Heal Party monk has been a standard for quite some time now... Mo/E with glyph of lesser energy, healer's boon, and heal party. BiP necros are popular with this build because of the high energy cost. I'm not saying that this is the best option, but at least the monk HAS the option. Paragon can't do much to help with the recharge of his skills.

the entire motivation line doesn't have to be as strong as healing prayers. The purpose of the profession is party support. Bringing a motigon helps to alleviate the need to constantly red-bar with Heal party spamming. That's basically why Finale of Restoration was nerfed so heavily in pvp. FoR and The power is yours! was able to red-bar in gvg just as well as pve monks were. Just using that elite skill alone, with a furious spear, you can get near full party heals every 3 seconds.

As for Song of Resto. I think its fine with the 20 second recharge. A motivation hero bar will either bring Song of resto/puri, ballad, Aria and/or chorus depending on the team makeup. With resto, im at least guaranteed 3 heals within 20 seconds. Considering the cost of the skills (4 energy) its ability to passively red-bar the entire party, is more efficient.